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Post by TNCOWBOY on Feb 24, 2015 9:20:30 GMT -5
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Post by Thunder Good-Oil on Feb 24, 2015 11:19:50 GMT -5
Was Jan van Breda Kolff's SEC POY cancelled out by being a chitty coach?
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Post by gramps on Feb 24, 2015 11:46:22 GMT -5
Was Jan van Breda Kolff's SEC POY cancelked out by being a chitty coach? Or maybe Cowboy thought that Jan was a female Lady Commmode Door?
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Post by TNCOWBOY on Feb 24, 2015 13:14:37 GMT -5
I never even thought about him. You dumbasses shoulda brought that up in the original thread.
Fortunately none of the 8 people that read it have noticed.
/actually 248 last time I looked //which ain't bad relatively
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Post by wolfgang on Feb 24, 2015 16:16:30 GMT -5
That took some work. JvBK played guard, forward & center at Vandy. I remember him hitting a bunch of jumpers at Stokely one night. Kosmalski, who was supposed to be guarding him, eventually was looking at Mears & Aberdeen with a "What am I supposed to do now?" look on his face. One old guy I'd add to UK is Louie Dampier, and not only because I used to live in his hometown. Here's an article about his recent election to the HoF. It's worth watching the video just for the ABA haircuts. www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2015/02/14/louie-dampier-elected-basketball-hall-fame/23407981/Looking at all of the other players on your UK list, which one was the best pro? It seems to me that the old-timers like Hagan, Issel & Grevey had a bigger impact than the more recent guys.
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Post by TNCOWBOY on Feb 24, 2015 17:42:35 GMT -5
Just gut reaction without thinking about it the best UK pro seems to me is Mashburn.
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Post by 404whore on Feb 24, 2015 18:37:52 GMT -5
I won't try to quibble with picks (other than uk) or your who'd beat who other than I think per usual your Tennessee bias comes thru
My real question is a fundamental one: what is the criteria for inclusion? Body of work as a collegiate. Body of work plus a nod to future success or I'm picking sides & I can have the college version of the guy actual body of work be damned? If it is the later I think I'd take a whole bunch of Cal's recent one & done kids. Davis, wall, cousins etc. heck
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Post by gramps on Feb 24, 2015 19:47:00 GMT -5
Just gut reaction without thinking about it the best UK pro seems to me is Mashburn. The numbers just don't play that out, Cowboy. Issel played 15 years in the ABA and NBA. Mashburn 10 in the NBA. Issel averaged nearly 23 points per game for his pro career. Mashburn 19. Issel averaged 9 boards, to Mashburn's 5. Mashburn has the edge in assists, 4 to 2 1/2. Issel was either an ABA or NBA All Star 7 times in his 15 years. Mashburn was an NBA all star one time. Issel was a much better all around player than was Mashburn, and it's really not close. Issel gets discounted because half of his career was in the ABA pre-merger, but the ABA was pretty damned good in those days with guys like Dr. J as competition. I'd take Issel in a heartbeat over Mashburn as a professional player.
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Post by TNCOWBOY on Feb 24, 2015 19:57:22 GMT -5
Mix of all ideas. I wrote down off the top of my head and then went gut feeling. If it was close I looked at stats and how successful the teams did. At least for the obvious teams. Teams like Mizzou, SCe, I had to do quite a bit of reading. Its a typical bar discussion where everybody tends to employ the criteria that suits their bias.
Im not about to put a one and done like Anthony Davis in the damn all time team for fing UK. Even if judging by talent you can GTFO with that. Davis goes on to the career the hype suggests I may would reconsider. Clearly you can go one of three ways--college career, NBA success, raw talent. I think for most of these teams its a combo of all. If you look at the original thread, I borrowed heavily from others judgement.
Its an opinion exercise--none of this is provable per se by anyone.
As to the bias--you always desperately want to put me in the sheep box. No matter how many times you say it its not going to make it true. There is no one here or any other board nor on Twitter harder on UT than I as a fan. That team wouldnt have much prayer against LSU which I state clearly. Anyone else I say they "could" beat them not would. If you look at the UT players it ought to be rather clear they would be competitive against any other roster and would go 50-50 at worst.
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Post by TNCOWBOY on Feb 24, 2015 19:59:24 GMT -5
Just gut reaction without thinking about it the best UK pro seems to me is Mashburn. The numbers just don't play that out, Cowboy. Issel played 15 years in the ABA and NBA. Mashburn 10 in the NBA. Issel averaged nearly 23 points per game for his pro career. Mashburn 19. Issel averaged 9 boards, to Mashburn's 5. Mashburn has the edge in assists, 4 to 2 1/2. Issel was either an ABA or NBA All Star 7 times in his 15 years. Mashburn was an NBA all star one time. Issel was a much better all around player than was Mashburn, and it's really not close. Issel gets discounted because half of his career was in the ABA pre-merger, but the ABA was pretty damned good in those days with guys like Dr. J as competition. I'd take Issel in a heartbeat over Mashburn as a professional player. I believe you. A bit before my time but didnt realize Issel did that well. Seems to me Mashburn's career wasnt what it looked like it might be due to injuries.
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Post by TNCOWBOY on Feb 24, 2015 20:08:36 GMT -5
Final point is to look at it excluding recency bias. Is John Wall better than Jim Master? Demarcus Cousins better than Sam Bowie?
Is a Rolls Royce better than a team of horses and buckboard? An ocean liner better than the Nina, Pinta, or Santa Maria? I sure as heck hope so. All facets of life including athletics greatly improve for a host of reasons. When comparing across eras you must look at each player relative to their contemporaries.
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Post by 404whore on Feb 24, 2015 20:20:02 GMT -5
Anthony Davis was consensus national player of the year. Nuff said
John Wall was consensus all American & SEC POY
So against their contemporaries they pass muster
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Post by gramps on Feb 24, 2015 20:24:45 GMT -5
The numbers just don't play that out, Cowboy. Issel played 15 years in the ABA and NBA. Mashburn 10 in the NBA. Issel averaged nearly 23 points per game for his pro career. Mashburn 19. Issel averaged 9 boards, to Mashburn's 5. Mashburn has the edge in assists, 4 to 2 1/2. Issel was either an ABA or NBA All Star 7 times in his 15 years. Mashburn was an NBA all star one time. Issel was a much better all around player than was Mashburn, and it's really not close. Issel gets discounted because half of his career was in the ABA pre-merger, but the ABA was pretty damned good in those days with guys like Dr. J as competition. I'd take Issel in a heartbeat over Mashburn as a professional player. I believe you. A bit before my time but didnt realize Issel did that well. Seems to me Mashburn's career wasnt what it looked like it might be due to injuries. I had the opportunity to see Issel play in his early days in the ABA quite a bit when he was playing with Artis Gilmore and Louie Dampier for the Kentucky Colonels. My Dad traveled quite a bit on business in those days (during my junior high/high school days) and he would sneak me out of school sometimes and take me with him some. His sales territory included Kentucky, Virginia, and North Carolina (along with Middle and East Tennessee) so we'd go watch the Colonels, Virginia Squires (a couple of those years when Dr. J was there) and the Carolina Cougars (Billy Cunningham was a Cougar). Those were really fun days and being able to spend that time with my Dad as a kid was awesome.
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Post by 404whore on Feb 24, 2015 20:26:42 GMT -5
A final shot:
Without a clear set of criteria your analysis is just JM pissing in the wind
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Post by 404whore on Feb 24, 2015 20:30:59 GMT -5
A final final shot:
I don't trust it till CB45 signs off on it
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